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Gerry:
That is the sound of panic in the forest. Wild chimpanzees in chaos and fear. Traffic, chimpanzees suffer cruel fate at the hands of humans. In addition to habitat destruction of their African forest, humans also harm apes in many more direct ways. Chimps, gorillas and other primates are hunted for bushmeat. This thriving illegal global trade has far reaching impacts. Apes are not only killed for meat, but when a mother is killed, a baby is often left behind. Captured alive, it suffers cruel lifelong fate as a pet. It’s estimated that a single baby can be worth as much as 70,000 US dollars. In many cases, these babies are trafficked by criminal syndicates where they’re part of a broader multi-billion dollar illegal trade. On this episode of Talking Apes, we’re exploring new efforts to dramatically interrupt decades of corruption and trafficking. One that is pushing great Apes ever closer to Extinction.
Hi, I’m Gerry Ellis and on this episode of Talking Apes, my guest is Iris Ho. She is the head of campaigns and policy for the Pan African Sanctuary Alliance or PASA. Miss Ho has over two decades of diverse experience in campaign advocacy, animal welfare, wildlife protection, and public policy. She represents PASA at multilateral environmental treaty conventions such as the Convention on International Trade in endangered flora and fauna.
Gerry:
You’re listening to Talking Apes, the podcast that gets to the very heart of what’s happening with and to apes like us. The Talking Apes podcast is made possible by generous support from listeners like you and non profit GLOBIO. Welcome, Iris. I am so excited to have you on Talking Apes.
Iris:
Thank you so much, Gerry. It’s a pleasure to be here and excitement goes both ways. I’ve also been looking forward to talking to you and connecting with you and also your audience.
Gerry:
Why don’t we start with you describing a little bit about what your role is, because it is unique in terms of PASA’s history.
Iris:
Yes, I am indeed still relatively new to PASA having joined last, well November last year. But you know, PASA was not new to me back then. I actually remember the very first time that one of the PASA members’ Sanctuaries Jacques in DRC Congo, he visited my previous organization This is way back. And then also the previous executive director of PASA, Greg visited my previous organization, Human Society International. So I remember visiting it, meeting them, and so both of their visits just blew me away. I mean the work that they do PASA members’ Sanctuaries and PASA does was just so impressive. I remember emailing actually both of them first when Frank visited us and we were all just so blown away. I emailed Frank and thanked him for what he does for primates in DRC Congo and Greg also, I remember emailing him actually asking him, how could I be a volunteer for PASA?
So that really speaks to the fantastic work that PASA Network is doing. So I have been familiar with PASA’s work, but after having joined PASA, I mean there’s just so much more that I did not know, I wasn’t aware of prior to joining PASA. And so every day still, I’m learning so much about what our members do and supporters and scientists within our network, what they do including collaborators like you, GLOBIO and Gerry and your supporters, what you guys do to help primates. And I’m just really grateful for the opportunity to be with PASA and I’m hoping just to do great things for primates and other African and wildlife and also other wild habitats. That’s what really keeps me going every day.
Gerry:
I think it’s beginning to dawn on people, especially policy makers and politicians and others, is that this is all interconnected. You’re not just out there saving chimpanzees, you’re saving when you’re involved in the conservation of a species, you’re involved in the conservation of its habitat, you’re involved in social issues in that locale and that country, economic issues, poverty, and those dots are all connected. And I think that’s what’s really interesting about you coming on board. Really prior to Greg taking over his director a few years ago, PASA was very much a membership organization and Greg really tried to, I think, push it in my conversations with him and the podcast we did in season one with him, really trying to see how can we change the agenda such that we’re empowering those local sanctuaries to become more players on the local scene and in conservation, and now with the addition of you to that. So maybe let’s talk a little bit about what you do because I don’t know, so I’d love to hear it. At what you do on a daily basis. What is your job? You’re a policy person at PASA and you’re the person out there at these conventions and these conferences. So what is that about?
Iris:
Yeah, so I am a policy person and that’s a lot of my background on wildlife issues for a long time. And Gerry, you’re absolutely right. These primates don’t live in a vacuum, whether it is in the international policy discourse or underground conservations and animal welfare efforts. And what I do is to, I like to see myself as a sales person, saleswoman and my product is primate protection. We need to protect African wildlife, African primates, and communities supporting conservation efforts. And throughout my career I have been participating in various multilateral convention discussions, policy making on the national levels in different countries and international levels, and as well as building existing networks with similar minded conservation organizations around the world. And so with me being on board, my job, a lot of what I do is to represent PASA in our network at the tables where policies are being made. Where policies are being discussed so that PASA members’ Sanctuaries and to some degree wildlife Sanctuaries have a voice at these tables. I mean, if you’re not at the table, then likely your input is not gonna be incorporated in a timely fashion.
Gerry:
Yeah, well that’s, I guess that’s what I wanted to ask. What is the value of a sanctuary? I just came back from Cameroon where I was with one of the members there, Ape Action Africa at Mafu Primate Sanctuary, and over 300 primates are taken care of, largest captive population or orphaned population of lowland gorillas, endangered lowland gorillas. What can their role be and how does that translate to an international setting? I mean, when we start talking about what UNEP does in CITIES and IUCN and all these other groups, I mean, can you bridge that gap for me?
Iris:
So I think there’s still not enough recognition within the greater wildlife protection slash conservation world to see sanctuaries as part of the solutions to combating wildlife trafficking, illegal wildlife trade or climate change depending on what the specific sanctuaries do. And that’s also something that I didn’t realize until I joined PASA, is that there quite a few, three I think three quarters of PASA members have anti poaching activities. And a lot of them, and I’m sure you know, are familiar with as well, some of them have community livelihoods programs and some also have reforestation efforts programs generating new or maintaining protected areas. And at these different multilateral conventions ‘CITIES’ is talking about addressing the international trade. And there’s also enforcement of wildlife trafficking to some degree under ‘CITIES’ because these are the same government agencies who are in charge of wildlife enforcement operations. And then with the convention on biological diversity, looking at the big picture, global picture, of biodiversity targets for the next 10 years.
So by being at these different discussions, PASA is inserting the view and voice of centuries in these discussions as they take place. And when it comes to wildlife Sanctuaries, and I’ve talked to many colleagues that I, I’ve been working with for so long, and a lot of them actually still have this, maybe not misunderstanding, but not enough understanding about the comprehensive work that sanctuaries do. They thought, Oh, sanctuaries are just taking care of animals. It’s all about just taking care of animals. They don’t think about how these animals came about, how did they arrive? They’re not connecting the dots. They didn’t think about, oh, a lot of these animals. The majority of them are actually victims of illegal wildlife trade without the sanctuaries, where would the office officials, government put the animals if they have a successful operation? I mean a successful enforcement operation is just one part of the big picture. The other picture is post-enforcement operation.
A truly successful enforcement operation is yes, you have the traffickers, you have the poachers. That’s one part. And another part is making sure that justice is served, making sure that you do have a judiciary system that follows through that there’s actually punishment for these wildlife criminals. But then there’s also what are you gonna do with these living animals? So that’s where the sanctuaries come in. So we have to look at addressing wildlife crime, addressing illegal trade, addressing poaching in the holistic manner. And that’s why sanctuaries are such an important pillar of a successful enforcement operation.
Gerry:
Yeah. Do you think part of the misconception that people have about the role sanctuaries is played is almost by their own doing? Because if you look at any of the social media, and that tends to be one of the main avenues in which people interact with the sanctuaries. Facebook and Instagram or whatever, and what you see is babies. It’s just this parade of babies. Unfortunately, part of that parade is because they’re constantly getting rescued animals. And it’s a much, despite the efforts over the last couple of decades that hasn’t slowed at all. I mean, we’re seeing just as many animals. In fact, during the pandemic some of the sanctuaries saw an actual increase. And we can get into maybe why that happened, but the fact that that’s the only view that most of the public gets to see as it’s put out there. Because of that, the Jane Goodall Institute, I just got a couple of emails popped up on my screen early this morning and it was reaching out obviously for donations, but it was because we’ve got just these rescues and there’s things that were going on because they support directly a couple of the sanctuaries.
And it just seems like that’s the only message. We don’t see this holistic sort of approach to stopping poaching that you’re talking about, and I’d love to dig into that a little bit more because there are these parts there, there’s the trafficking illegal part. And maybe you can describe each of these parts maybe in a little more detail and help us break it down, because you’re the first person we’ve had on the podcast in over a year that really probably understands it better than anyone else. We’ve had people like Ofir, Drori and others on that are involved in one of these pieces. But this idea that there are these three silos so that the trafficking, the judiciary, and then I guess the sanctuary piece or the rehab reintroduction piece.
Iris:
And Gerry, if I may, I like to go back to maybe also compared trafficking of live animals versus my background, which is wildlife trafficking especially on elephant ivory, pangolins and rhino horns, because that’s how I see the need for discourse on trafficking and poaching of live animals because I’ve done the trafficking and in ivory rhino horns and pangolin skins for so long. So I know that the power of narratives and the power of stories, of how informing the wider public about the scourge of elephant poaching, what it does to elephants, the cruelty side, the cruelty of shaving, of a horn of rhino who could still be alive, and the trafficking of pangolins the staggering amount of pangolins being poached. But so far, at least the last decade or so, the international, there’re just too many conservations, unfortunately, too many conservation crisis facing our generation. So the last decade or so, the narratives, the discussions have been focusing on killing elephants, rhinos and pangolins and not enough attention has been focusing on trafficking and poaching of live animals, including primates.
Gerry:
Maybe, sorry, if I could just for one second, just to get everybody who’s listening to this up to speed, can you give us just a snapshot view of what that is so that they understand it? Because I think people think, Oh yeah, they’re trafficking ivory, so they’re killing the elephant, cutting them and shipping it off to China or wherever. But the crime is much greater than that and it’s a much broader network than that.
Iris:
Yes, and I think, Gerry, that’s a really good point because the tackling, the trafficking of elephant poaching, rhino horns and pangolin skins to some degree, deserve its urgency because these crimes intersected with, for example, national security of the United States. If we look at who were poaching elephants back then, we’re talking about arm militias, we’re talking about Asha Bob groups with terrorist connections. And so very rightly so that the wildlife trafficking was focusing on stopping elephant poaching about 144,000 elephants were poached in a decade, the last decade. And so those were urgent crises. And that’s why the majority of the discussion when it came to wildlife trafficking we’re focusing on these species because we’re talking about billions of dollars as a whole for wildlife trafficking, illegal wildlife trade which rank one of the top five illegal activities worldwide. And with that in mind it’s in my view, more discussions need to be talk about trafficking and poaching of live animals, especially primates, because we’re talking about species that first of all, they are sentient beings, and second of all, we’re talking about animals that are close relatives to us. And third, unlike elephant ivory, pangolins, rhino horns, once you seize them, you put them in storage, which requires a lot of resources of course, to make sure that they are no leakage of these seized products into the marketplace. But caring for live animals, we’re talking about lifetime commitment. And I think a lot of the times I don’t think policy makers make that connection or it’s not in their calculations when it comes to, Oh, let’s do an enforcement, how much do we need? But do we look at the financial responsibilities of caring for these confiscated animals who a lot of these animals will need, maybe will not be able to repatriate it back to the wild because of the traumas that they experience or the injuries that they suffer during poaching and trafficking. And so that goes back again, is that it’s really, we’re doing our own disservice if we look at wildlife trafficking, but yet not enough discussion are looking at trafficking and poaching of live animals and primates, and especially the rehabilitation and care for these seized animals.
Because again, this is lifelong commitment. And this goes back actually to your question, earlier point that you’re talking about. sanctuaries we see on social media, it’s baby images of babies. That’s because that’s what they receive, is who they receive, as you say. And human beings, unfortunately, we need to be reminded that wildlife crime, there’s a face behind these wildlife crimes and the face or the face of a baby chimpanzee or the face of a baby bonobo. And that’s how we can, sanctuaries can educate the public and remind the policy makers and put this concept of wildlife crime with the face.
Gerry:
So you’re a policy maker, you’ve got these three silo. Where do, I think it’s easy to say, Okay, I, we have to attack it on all fronts if we’re going to make a difference, but where is the real lynchpin in all of this? Where is if everybody was gonna leave their logos and egos at the door, which is tough in conservation, and get in a room and say, Okay, here’s how we’re going to attack and let’s focus on the primate trafficking for a moment. Where do we start? Where’s the key point where you think if we could make a change there, that would start having a ripple effect across the board?
We’re gonna take a short break from our conversation with Iris Ho, and we’ll be back in just a minute. I wanna check in with our assistant producer Demelza Bond, and see what’s going on behind the scenes and on all of our social media tracks. Hi Demelza. What’s happening?
Demelza:
Hi, Gerry. Well, it’s really good to have Iris here with us today. She’s really an expert on changing global policies regarding the illegal wildlife trade. So I’m super excited about that. And it’s really great to be connecting with the PASA team again, because I used to volunteer for them. So I just wanna tell everyone to check them out because they are really an industry leader. They’re an amazing organization.
Gerry:
They are. We have a lot of friends over there, and some of you may have heard the podcast we’ve been doing with some of their staff here starting with their new executive director, Kelly O’Mara. Anyway, you could check out those over on our Talking Apes website. And how’s that going with the new site?
Demelza:
Oh, wonderfully. Yes. We had a very successful launch couple of weeks ago now, and yeah, we’ve been having lots of good feedback, so thank you everyone. Please do visit, it’s talkingapes.org.
Gerry:
Wonderful. Speaking of feedback, I heard you have been hearing from folks, and it’s all positive, Yay, <laugh>.
Demelza:
Yeah, the reviews have started to roll in. Now we did ask people to send in comments and reviews that we could read out, so I’m gonna get right into it and read out the first one. And this is from the lovely Bruce McCammon. So he says that he likes our wide range of topics and that the podcast helps him understand the complexities of ape conservation. And then he says there is a strong sense of curiosity and respect between Gerry and the people he interviews. Listening to the interviews helps inform me not only about apes, but also how to think about my personal efforts in local conservation issues.
Gerry:
Wow. No, that’s exciting. I mean, and that’s exactly what we were trying to do when we launched Talking Apes. And so it’s really fun to know that we are, we’re connecting with people out there. So thank you, Bruce. Appreciate the feedback. And for people who do wanna chat with us, how can they get a hold of us?
Demelza:
Yeah, please do keep the reviews, comments, questions coming guys? Just head over to our website which again is talkingapes.org, and right at the top you’ll find the links to our social media profiles. We’ve got an Instagram and a Facebook, and you can leave us a comment or send us a message on there.
Gerry:
When you’re also up there at the top of the page with those links. You might notice up in the upper left hand corner, there’s an awesome new little logo that we had created for Talking Apes and we’ve got a special competition going on for that little logo.
Demelza:
We, I won’t say too much, but we’ve got that cute little orangutan head and he needs a name. So if you want to help us, give him a name. We’ve got a blog post up on the website and you can find out how to enter on there.
Gerry:
That’s awesome. Okay, that’s talkingapes.org, talkingapes.org. So jump over there and you can check out everything we’re doing plus upsight, and we’ll see what’s going on over there. And also a list of upcoming guests. Thanks Demlza, I appreciate you jumping in and keeping us all plugged in.
Demelza:
Thanks, Gerry. Speak soon.
Gerry:
All right. And now back to our conversation with Iris Ho. Let’s focus on primate trafficking for a moment. Where do we start? Where’s the key point where you think if we could make a change there that would start having a ripple effect across the board?
Iris:
Talking to PASA members and also just looking at the discussions, the last, let’s just say the last decade on wildlife crime is that the key is to have political will to address the issue and to elevate poaching and traffic over primates, just like other forms of wildlife trafficking as a serious crime. Because we’ve heard from folks on the ground that a lot of the officials, they might say, Oh, it’s just an animal. And so that is the fundamental mindset that we need to change.
Gerry;
So is that political will inside, outside or the countries or both?
Iris
It has to be both. And I will say there’s political will inside, there’s political will outside, and there’s also the mindset of the local communities as well that need to be there so that we can drive lasting changes on the ground, on the frontline. And when it comes to political will, I do see that there has been very high level political will internationally, especially on governments in Europe, the UK, and the US seeing wildlife trafficking as a priority conservation, conservation priority. And with that mindset translates into high level or regular diplomatic engagement with their counterparts in Africa and elsewhere. And so you need to sustain that level of engagement on the political level and with that, to work in tandem with groups underground like PASA members who are, many of them are tackling the illegal trade or the protection of primates on the ground, work with communities and work with enforcement agencies. So you need to have these multilayers, really layers of collaborations and conversations and dialogue going on. It’s a complicated situation, and therefore you require multilayers of solutions.
Gerry:
It seems like now PASA may be the only ones out there who have great apes and primates as a mandate, it’s the core of who you are and what you do to push this issue. It’s that, I don’t know who else would be doing it.
Iris:
Yeah, you know Gerry, this is, It’s teamwork really. I mean, yes, protecting primates is PASA’s mandate, but there are also many organizations who are working to protect different animals, including primates. And we cannot afford to work in silos. And that’s why I think that’s one reason that I see my mission again, is to connect PASA network with the wider international policy maker communities, with the conservation and animal protection communities. Because whether it’s GRASP or other organizations a lot is, it’s very resource intensive. But I do see that there has been an increased recognition of the role of sanctuaries play. And that’s one reason why PASA was awarded the Action for Chimpanzee grant by the US State Department, the bureau, under a Bureau of International Law and Narcotic Affairs INL. With that grant allows our members or sanctuaries on the ground, specifically in West Africa in this case, to take the lead in coordinating with relevant stakeholders, government agencies in tackling trafficking of chimpanzees. And the programs and activities under that grant will benefit not only chimpanzees or primates for that matter, but other African wildlife as well in those countries.
Gerry:
Yeah, there’s two parts to that I’d love to talk about. One is, the fact that it was the international Narcotics and law enforcement or environment, what is it? Yeah, Law enforcement affairs that you got the grant from, which just seems kind of bizarre. Oh yeah, it’s, It wasn’t the US Fish and Wildlife or wasn’t what you’d normally think of as a more conservation based group. It was law enforcement in narcotics. So maybe you can explain that a little bit, like why they would be the ones giving you money for a program called Action for Chimpanzees. But the other thing is, I’d like to talk a little bit about is resources. And so maybe talk about the law enforcement piece first and then we’ll jump back in on the resources.
Iris:
So actually, when it comes to US government grants combating wildlife trafficking or conserving species, in addition to US visualized service the US State Department also sees combating wildlife trafficking as a policy priority. And that goes back to, again, this is maybe more than 10 years ago when then President Obama designated wildlife trafficking as a national security interest issue. And so with that designation since then, there has been a whole of government approach within the US in addressing crime of unnatural resources. And that’s why the last decade or so State Department, INL specifically, has been funding various programs around the world and supporting law enforcement capacities and other ways to tackle wildlife crimes. And that’s when our action for chimpanzee grant came in. And we’re not the only organizations that have been awarded to tackle wildlife crime by INL, there are a number of organizations that, and State Department does play a very important role in driving the US foreign policies and wildlife conservation and also tackling wildlife crime.
And specifically under our action for the chimpanzee grant there are different components within this grant, and one is to support the capability and capacity of the judiciary branch and also law enforcement officers. And that will be through training of these government stakeholders. And even though a lot of training has been done in different countries, different government branches, we know that sometimes these turnovers can be really high in some of the countries. So it’s very important to have these trainings to continue to make sure that the local government and people who are in charge of prosecuting crimes, wildlife crime who are in charge of going after traffickers and poachers or protecting primates in the wild, they have the tools and the knowledge that they need to do their job. So one component is the training, and then another component within this grant is boosting anti poaching abilities. And so the grants allow our sanctuary partners on the ground to have the latest, and most efficient anti-poaching supplies so that the sanctuaries and their government partners can effectively conduct anti-poaching activities.
Gerry:
Yeah, so this is a two year grant?
Iris:
Yes. This is a two year grant.
Gerry:
So what is the likelihood, I mean, because this seems like to be a chronic problem in conservation and now I guess we could call it other issues because they’re, the way they blend and mix now with wildlife crime and international terrorism and all of that mixing together.
I was gonna say, one of the chronic problems is these little punctuation marks that we put forward in funding. I mean, there’s like a two year here and then nothing and then two year. And so there’s no way to build this sort of consistency. And that’s what I think we both would agree is one of the problems with the judiciary in a lot of these countries is, as you said, there’s a lot of turnover in some of these positions, minister positions and others. So there’s no consistency in policy? and no consistency in, what’s the right word? I guess it’s like an attitude towards poaching, an attitude towards these crimes. And I’ve seen it where ministers will flip flop. You have one minister who’s really staunch about poaching, and then the new minister comes in and they don’t even care about it at all, and it bounces around. So, it seems to be a resource issue as much as anything. How do we consistently put the resources in to create consistency?
Iris:
Yeah. And Gerry, before answering that, I’ll just also just add a third component of our grant, which is a very important component which is analyzing the DNA bio samples of the chimpanzees that are under the care of sanctuaries, and then compare their DNA with the DNA of wild chimpanzees in that country. So that would hopefully, that mapping, will let us understand where the chimpanzees came from. And then you will be able to map out the hot poaching, poaching hotspots by knowing where the animals came from in the wild. And if we also have where the animals were seized, then you can also draw out the trafficking route within that country.
Gerry:
Maybe explain that a little bit more for people listening. Because my guess is most people would think, well, if it’s Cameroon and there’s a chimpanzee seize, it must come from Cameroon, right?
Iris:
Yes. So we’re talking about within the country, or maybe we don’t know it could be trans boundary trafficking. So for example if, we’re talking about say COE owned right? And so we will analyze their genetic specialist who will analyze the chimpanzees, that’s the DNA samples of chimpanzees in our member sanctuary Tacugama in Sierra Leone. And they will compare that with the maps, with the bio maps of chimpanzees, wild chimpanzees in different parts of Sierra Leone and or even the region we don’t know, in case they are in traffic internationally across borders. And hopefully we have enough mapping of DNA samples of the wild chimpanzees within Sierra Leone to know where, approximately where in Sierra Leone that these animals came from. Then theoretically then we can say, Oh, this area in Sierra Leone could be a hot poaching hotspot but we don’t know, maybe the chimpanzees came from other countries nearby. And so it’s the beauty of science that you don’t have these preconceived conclusions. You let science and data dictate, let us know what they find.
Gerry:
Well, that seems to support exactly what I was saying. It seems like you can’t do that in two years. That sounds like a decade plus long project to map DNA and match it to trafficking routes and populations.
Iris:
Yeah,well I mean it is, mapping the technology itself, the analysis itself doesn’t take years. And so within the data that we will be able to generate, can only tell what’s been happening the last two years or so. And so you’re right, the poaching patterns and trafficking patterns could change over time. And there is a need for consistency. And I guess in a way it can behoove us who are doing the work to make sure that, to remind policy makers and grantor organizations or foundations and government agencies, that two years is not enough. If we wanna address the root cause, it takes years. And hopefully they will recognize that. And I do think that a lot of them do recognize that.
Gerry:
Well, yeah, that just seems especially since we as an organization, GLOBIO, have been very involved with Tacugama in Sierra Leone, in developing what’s called the Chimpanzee National Animal Awareness and Protection Campaign. We were there for a couple of months last year working on the strategic plan for that and have pulled together funding to help with on the ground activities. One of the things that was, I wouldn’t say it was shocking, but it was surprising is we felt like as you now, it was a couple of years ago, that Tacugama was able to get the chimpanzee recognized or the Western chimpanzee recognized as the national animal, the first country in the world to name a great ape as a national animal.
Gerry:
But nothing actually happened <laugh>, at two years there was a big celebration. Jane Goodall showed up and there was a lot of fanfare and then nothing happened. And that was part of the strategic plan that we worked on with them was, what is the awareness on the ground? And we started with the capital city. So we did surveys street surveys, literally we got funding to do street surveys there and to ask people about the national animal and the two of the most prominent animals that people thought were the national animal, one was the lion, which makes some sense, Sierra Leone although there hasn’t been a lion seen in Sierra Leone for some time. And the other was the cow. So I mean, it just indicated the work ahead that, here this thing has now been the national animal for a couple of years, and basically the people within the capital don’t even know much less rural areas where poaching is going on and where other issues are at stake. And it really illustrated, I think, where the resources need to go to just create ground level awareness. Yeah, so the work you’re doing…
Iris:
But yeah, that goes back to, I think earlier we’re talking about political will, and I said it’s not only political will, but also the mindset of the communities, will drive the lasting transformative changes really on the ground for generations to come. And unfortunately, this doesn’t happen overnight, but look at what Tacugama has been doing, even though, you know, did the strategic planning. That was two years ago, with the national animal, but they did have this past May a few months ago, they did have a National Chimp Week, chimpanzee week, and which was, I myself just absolutely love it. I enjoyed the footage that I’ve seen out of Sierra Leone young seeing people being so joyful celebrating their national animal.
It takes a long time, but we have to be persistent. And it’s funny that you say cow is in one of the two countries that people, I guess when you said that, I was like, Yeah, out of sight out mine. We often say that, and that’s a reason why for me, representing PASA at these various coalitions and various conferences is to remind people, Hey, the sanctuaries are here, and the sanctuaries should be an integral partner to your work on the ground from community engagement to conservation, to animal protection. And same thing with engaging government partners whether it’s training or other collaborations and engaging the communities is just keep engaging them so that it’s in their mind, it’s not out of sight, out of mind anymore. They continue to remember and to know that, hey, we do have chimpanzees in Sierra Leone, it’s our national animal, it’s our national pride, it’s part of our natural heritage, and we have a national pride.
You know,I’ve been thinking a lot about this is, again, it’s part of the stories, the narratives of sanctuaries, that not only these animals, many of them are the natural heritage of different countries, African countries, but we also have sanctuaries who employ so many locals and the nationals of Cameroonians or Sierra Leoneians who every day their job is caring for these animals. And I don’t know how many of their fellow citizens know that or think about that. And I think that’s a very powerful and an important story to tell, is that not only we have these wild animals, but we also have people, our fellow citizens, their job is protect these animals in the wild and some whose daily life in and out is caring for these animals for the rest of their lives. And I think a lot of people, whether they’re international audience or local, national audience will be touched by that.
Gerry:
I’d like to end with this. What gives you, personally, hope? I mean, you see in your job before this and now your job at PASA, I mean, it would be easy to have a lot of despair. I mean, you see a lot of crap happening to wildlife on this planet, and I just like, how do you find that hope? I mean, obviously you probably do have moments of despair, but what drives you to keep doing this and want to do this?
Iris:
Gerry, I’ll be honest with you that to not have despair, to not feel frustrated, to not feel angry, to not feel sad will be a lie. It’s impossible. I mean, if you care enough, if you’ve seen enough, you will feel all these negative emotions. And sometimes these negative emotions drive me going. But more importantly, I mean there were many times, and I’m sure your listeners will feel the same, is that, are we making enough changes? It’s hard, not to despair. Sometimes I feel like one day I’m like, Yay, I’m taking five steps ahead and next like, oh darn, it’s three steps backwards. So even six steps backwards. But what keeps me hopeful and what keeps it going, and that’s actually a major reason why I joined PASA, is connecting with and seeing the people on the ground, in this case Africa, the advocates on the frontline every single day, putting their lives in danger and caring for individual animals that, you know, I’ve done so much policy stuff.
But without that connection, without that appreciation for people on the ground, on the front line is what keeps me going. We sit here, I’m here in Washington behind my computers going to these big conference halls, but I’m always reminded of so many people, whether there are sanctuary people or undercover investigators or just a small local non-profit, one person army, most of the times in many of these developing countries, fighting for what they believe in. I think how can that not be motivated by that? And I shall never lose that personal empathy for them and also for the animals. I think we talk a lot about conservation today but with my background, I’m an animal welfare person at heart. Every individual animal matters, so does conservation of the whole species. But I think at the end of the day we do our best to save animals and we do our best to save the species in a bigger picture sense.
Gerry:
Yeah. Thank you, <laugh>. Thank you for fighting <laugh>.
Iris:
I know,<laugh> got me emotional. I’m trying to hold back my tears, but yeah, it would be a lie to say that I wasn’t angry. Yeah. But now, you know, thinking about some of the setbacks and some of the cruelty I’ve seen, whether it’s wild animals or companion animals or farm animals, right? It’s hard not to be affected.
Gerry:
Well, I think it’s wonderful that you’re managed to take what would normally seem like a negative thing and turn it into such a powerful motivator because yeah, we do need to keep fighting the fight and keep fighting the fight for those guys who are on the ground and doing it every day. I just spoke to somebody not long ago who had their life threatened multiple times because of what they’re doing. And it’s just like, their name will never be seen in the big conservation world. And if they get murdered tomorrow for what they’re doing, basically, nobody will ever know they existed except for all those animals that they managed to save and protect. So yeah,
Iris:
I mean, just giving up is not an option.
Gerry:
Exactly. Well, we do have to <laugh> bring this to an end at some point, I guess, then so we can start another one at some point. Thank you so very much. I really do appreciate you taking the time, and this has been really fascinating, and let’s do this again soon.
Iris:
Yeah, no, thank you so much Gerry and Demelza for giving me this platform and also for giving PASA these opportunities to speak to your audience. And I’m sure that we will continue our conversations, many conversations to come and engage you, and then also your audience for our shared passion for primates and wildlife.
Gerry:
I wanna thank Iris Ho for sharing her insights into the politics and complexities of the international primate conservation through the efforts of PASA. You’ve been listening to Talking Abes, where each episode we explore the world of apes with experts from research to outreach, with passionate primate people and conservationists from around the world. Our guests are at the forefront of news about our wild primate cousins. You can find previous episodes of Talking Apes on our new website at wwwtalkingapes.org or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. If you have any questions for us here at Talking Apes or ideas about future podcasts, you can always email us at media@talkingapes.org. I’d like to thank Talking Apes, assistant producer Demelza Bond for all of the invisible but amazing work that she does behind the scenes. And finally, I’d like to thank you. Talking Apes Podcasts are made possible by listeners like you. Please consider supporting Talking Apes with your tax deductible donation, and you can find a link to that on our website at talkingapes.org. That’s talkingapes.org.
